Robert Jay Lifton (May 16, 1926 – September 4, 2025)

I just learned that Robert Jay Lifton crossed over on September 4, 2025 – a few months ago. His books and work were a tremendous inspiration to me when I was in medical school and psychiatry residency. I was able to see him speak once, at the International Society for Traumatic Stress Studies annual meeting in New York City. I also interviewed him by phone 8/13/21, which can be found on The POV interview website that I run with my friend, Usha Akella.

I was particularly interested in his concepts of malignant normality and the witnessing professional. Based on his work, as a social psychiatrist, interviewing Nazi doctors, atomic bomb survivors in Japan, and working with Vietnam veterans, Lifton went on to become a role model as a medical activist – speaking out about war, nuclear weapons, climate change, and late in his life, about the dangers of Donald J. Trump’s words and actions. Quotes below are from our interview.

“I came to the idea of the witnessing professional in connection with a companion term of malignant normality. Malignant normality being the imposition on a society of a set of expectations that are highly destructive but are rendered ordinary and legal. Of course, the most grievous and extreme example of malignant normality is in connection with my work on Nazi doctors. In that sense, the German physician at the ramp in Auschwitz and other camps, sending Jews and others to their deaths was functioning in a kind of malignant normality. That is what he was supposed to do. That was his job, so to speak.

Within malignant normality we professionals have the capacity for exposing it, identifying it, and combating it, and that is the development or evolution of the witnessing professional. He or she is witness to the malignance of the claimed normality and not diminishing one’s professional knowledge but actually calling it forth as a means of creating one’s particular witness.”

From his study of extreme socio-psychological situations, Lifton cautions us about the dangers of gradually growing to accept what is not normal – what he calls malignant normality. And he offers an antidote to malignant normality through the role of witnessing professionals whose ethics require us to speak up and speak out against social ills in the world – such as the climate crisis or American fascism and totalitarianism.

Lifton wrote the original foreword, “Our Witness to Malignant Normality,” for The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump: 37 Psychiatrists and Mental Health Experts Assess a President – Updated and Expanded with New Essays. Bandy X. Lee, psychiatrist and author of Violence: An Interdisciplinary Approach to Causes, Consequences, and Cures, brought together a group of civic-minded mental health professionals in 2017 for a conference at Yale, which was later published as The Dangerous Case, a first edition with 27 professionals, and later 37 professionals. Another trauma expert (another influence on my education in trauma and psychiatiry), Judith L. Herman, co-wrote the prologue with Bandy X. Lee, “Professions and Politics.”

Lifton’s concept of the witnessing professional provides a view of professionalism which moves beyond the narrow confines of the four walls of the consulting room to include the a responsibility to the larger ecological, social, and political world.

“I became interested in the history of what we now call professionalism and the professions and, as you may know, it begins with profession as a profession of faith, of religious faith or commitment to a religious order. Over time, especially as we developed and moved into more of modern society, the idea of a profession became more associated with skills and increasingly technical skills. So, the idea of the professional or the profession became, what I would call technized, and the moral element of it was, in a sense, neglected or denied. In its most extreme form, the technized professional is a kind of hired gun for anybody who will pay him or her for professional knowledge.

So, the witnessing professional, then, is a return to the inclusion of an ethical dimension in professional work. If you or I carry out some form of psychiatric or medical healing―that can be seen quite easily as a moral or ethical act. We shouldn’t lose the ethical dimension of being a professional. It is true that sometimes, as a professional, we have to  step back and not experience fully another’s pain, or even the pain that we cause others, such as with a surgeon making a delicate operation or even a psychiatrist taking care of a very disturbed patient. But, at the same time we need to maintain, within the concept of the professional, that ethical or moral dimension and our own openness to some of that pain.”

Lifton’s work has inspired my own writing on the idea of medical activism as a professional, ethical responsibility, as well as my series of essays entitled Words Create Worlds.

Now, more than ever, we need to heed Lifton’s warnings about the risks of accepting malignant normality and we all need to embrace the idea of the witnessing professional.

For excellent overviews of his life’s work, see books:

Losing Reality: On Cults, Cultism, and the Mindset of Political and Religious Zealotry

Surviving Our Catastrophes: Resilience and Renewal from Hiroshima to the COVID-19 Pandemic

Witness to an Extreme Century: A Memoir

My 8/13/21 interview with can be found on The POV interview website, the-pov.com.

Words Create Worlds.11: What Are We Going to Do Now?

Images: Renee Nicole Good and Alex Pretti were shot and killed by ICE in January, 2026. ICE photo by David Guttenfelder/The New York Times/Redux. The cover of The Clash’s 1979 album London Calling.

The Clash song, “Clampdown,” from the 1979 double album Londong Calling, starts with the question: “What are we going to do now?”

I have had this song by The Clash going through my head this past week. Now after the second killing of American Citizens by ICE in the past month, I keep asking myself, asking us, “What are we going to do now?”

The shooting death by masked government agents of Alex Pretti strikes close to home as he was a VA ICU nurse. Having trained and worked in the VA system for close to 20 years, I know the kind of professional dedication and commitment that VA employees bring to caring for Veterans who have served their country.

Renee Nicole Good had just dropped off her 6-year old at school before she was shot by armed masked government agents. Her last words were reportedly, “That’s fine, dude. I’m not mad at you.”

“What are we going to do now?”

I always wondered what “the clampdown” was when I listened to this Clash song as a kid. I wasn’t sure what it was, but I knew I didn’t want to work for it – and I know I don’t want to work for it now.

Taking off his turban, they said, is this man a Jew?
‘Cause they’re working for the clampdown
They put up a poster saying we earn more than you!
When we’re working for the clampdown

I pictured something like Hitler’s paramilitary Brownshirts, or some other loosely organized group that came together to inflict violence on it’s own people. I suppose this queston of those working for the clampdown about “is this man a Jew” made me think of the Nazis.

We will teach our twisted speech
To the young believers
We will train our blue-eyed men
To be young believers

The Clampdown seems to require teaching “twisted,” violent speech to the young of the nation, and invoking “our blue-eyed men” again recalls the Nazis. It continues to confound me how many MAGA and now ICE believers there are, who don’t see how words create worlds. The deaths of Renee Nicole Good and Alex Pretti are the worlds that have been created by the words of name calling and bullying and “othering” of Americans.

The judge said five to ten, but I say double that again
I’m not working for the clampdown
No man born with a living soul
Can be working for the clampdown

At least some judges are finding for the rule of law, but what happens when the judges are working for the Clampdown? I hesitate to dehumanize others and say they don’t have a “living soul,” but dehumanization, scapegoating, projection, and “othering” are key psychosocial operations that pave the way for violence. I can see questioning the humanity of those working for the Clampdown when the Clampdown dehumanizes others.

Kick over the wall ’cause government’s to fall
How can you refuse it?
Let fury have the hour, anger can be power
D’you know that you can use it?

It does seem like government is falling. We have a crisis between the federal government’s masked paramilitary organization. The Feds are blocking city and state government from investigating these shooting deaths of American citizens. Who holds the power here? Why are there armed masked men kicking down doors and kicking over walls? The seem to encapsulate the fury of the hour, which is how I always heard that line. The current President seems to have a fury of the hour, but The Clash seem to say that those with the fury are carrying the hour. Anger can be power. That is true. Anger can be power. “Do you know that you can use it?” This could be giving permission for paramilitary organizations to channel their fury and anger into anti-democratic activities and violence. But we can also hear this line from the perspective of those asking “What are we going to do now?” We can channel our anger into peaceful protest, into not looking away from abuses of power and tyranny. But again, this line could also be from the hooligans who have risen to power, looking toward their leader, ready to carry out the fury of the hour.

The voices in your head are calling
Stop wasting your time, there’s nothing coming
Only a fool would think someone could save you

Here The Clash tell us that it would be foolish to think that someone is coming to save us, we each have to refuse to work for the Clampdown.

The men at the factory are old and cunning
You don’t owe nothing, so boy get running
It’s the best years of your life they want to steal

Now the Clampdown also takes the form of the “old and cunning” men who want to steal the “best years of your life.” The Clampdown takes away your rights, it takes away your soul, it can steal away the best years of your life, and, apparently, it can even take your life with impunity.

You grow up and you calm down
You’re working for the clampdown
You start wearing the blue and brown
You’re working for the clampdown

I heard this as a warning. It is one thing to be full of a piss and vinegar as a young punk, but there is a risk that you “grow up” and you “calm down” and end up working for the Clampdown, even though you resisted it in your youth. I knew about the Brownshirts, but I didn’t know about the Blueshirts – are The Clash singing about the Irish party of that name? I’m not sure. It is clear though, The Clash are warning you not to work for the Clampdown, no matter whether you are wearing a brown shirt, a blue shirt, or a red white and blue shirt.

So you got someone to boss around
It makes you feel big now
You drift until you brutalize
You made your first kill now

This is always a chilling stanza. I always think of the kids who I had been friends with in elementary school who became thugs and bullies in high school. People who feel small and have listened to the “twisted speech” and become “young believers” that the way to feel big and powerful is to find someone to “boss around.” Once you have given over your power to the fury of the hour, you cease to direct your own actions, you become a puppet who drifts “until you brutalize,” and from there the next step is making “your first kill now.” Words lead to action which leads to creating worlds of violence and when you are working for the Clampdown, you can easily end up killing.

I had to look this line up on The Clash website because Google Lyrics listed it as “Doesn’t make you first kill now,” which really doesn’t make any sense.

In these days of evil presidentes
Working for the clampdown
But lately one or two has fully paid their due
For working for the clampdown

Doesn’t that just capture it! It sure seems like we are living in the “days of evil presidentes/working for the clampdown.” We can only hope that one or two will fully pay their due. Right now it seems like the Clampdown is in charge and unrestrained.

Ha! Gitalong! Gitalong!
Working for the clampdown
Ha! Gitalong! Gitalong!
Working for the clampdown

Not much more to say here – sounds like a cattle drive with masked armed men who have immunity under the Federal government, trying to heard along protesters and killing the occasional one or two.

Yeah I’m working hard in Harrisburg
Working hard in Petersburg
Working for the clampdown
Working for the clampdown

Everyone, no matter they are, they’re working – and either your working hard for the Clampdown, or your working hard against it.

Ha! Gitalong! Gitalong
Begging to be melted down
Gitalong, gitalong
(Work)
(Work)
(Work) And I’ve given away no secrets – ha!
(Work)
(Work)
(More work)
(More work)
(Work)
(Work)
(Work)
(Work)
Who’s barmy now?

The song just tails off with “work” and “more work,” finally asking “who’s barmy now?” Meaning who’s crazy, I suppose. “Clampdown” gives us much to think about in the United States at this moment. It gives us pause and reminds us that the Clampdown could be almost anything and could be almost anywhere, but right now it is here…now.

“What are we going to do now?”

Maybe the answer to that question is: you are either working for the Clampdown – or you are not.

Are you working for the Clampdown?

Clampdown, Live – Fridays 1980: shorturl.at/TdE5A

London Calling album, studio version: rb.gy/kdhzxe

Words Create Worlds.10: Jung Did Not Write about Empaths vs. Narcissists

The last Words Create Worlds essay in this blog was “Words Create Worlds.9: Life and Death are in the Power of the Tongue” on January 7th, 2021, the day after the insurrection. I am feeling the need to start writing this series, again, though, with current events in the United States and abroad.

The inspiration for this essay series comes from Rabbi Heschel. He said, as recounted by his daughter, Susannah Heschel:

“Words, he often wrote, are themselves sacred, God’s tool for creating the universe, and our tools for bringing holiness—or evil—into the world. He used to remind us that the Holocaust did not begin with the building of crematoria, and Hitler did not come to power with tanks and guns; it all began with uttering evil words, with defamation, with language and propaganda. Words create worlds, he used to tell me when I was a child. They must be used very carefully. Some words, once having been uttered, gain eternity and can never be withdrawn. The Book of Proverbs reminds us, he wrote, that death and life are in the power of the tongue.”[1]

We live in what is increasingly called a post-truth world and with the growth of AI, truth is getting even more difficult to ascertain. Truth may become only one perspective amongst many in the marketplace and in politics.

The reason I am reviving this essay series is because I have recently had two clients refer to videos by “Carl Jung” discussing empaths and narcissists. I found this very strange, as the word “empath” is a contemporary term which Jung did not use. “Narcissist” is also a term he rarely used. I cautioned my clients that these could be AI created fictions and began looking into the source of this misinformation.

I count 208 videos posted by Surreal Mind (listed as joining April 26, 2025) on YouTube, with 137K subscribers. Most of these videos contain AI images of Jung in different settings and give a muddled mixture of occasional true quotes from Jung (unrelated to empaths and narcissists) in a morass of misattributions. I hesitate to go deeply into these false attributions, lest I lend them credence they don’t deserve. Let us just look at one in video, “4 Stages Every Empath Abuse By Narcissist Goes Through / Carl Jung Psychology,” [sic] (with 31K views), whose first words are a deceptive falsehood. The video starts with the words, “Carl Jung discovered that empaths who survive narcissistic abuse go through four distinct psychological stages, and the final stage terrifies narcissists more than anything else.” These stages are listed on the screen as: 1) “The Light Trap” (a term not found in Jung’s Collected Works – CW); 2) “Soul Extraction” (not found in the CW); 3) “The Dark Night” (found in discussions of St. John of the Cross’ “dark night of the soul” and the nigredo stage in alchemy, but nowhere in regards to “empaths” or “narcissists”); and 4) “The Phoenix Rebirth” (not found in the CW). We do not have to go any further into the video to know that it is not founded on Jung’s works and is therefore a deceptive untruth.

The videos are narrated in a deep English-accented voice (sounding like Terrence Stamp in the movie “Yes Man”) with eerie background tones. (If you get creeped out by these videos, please watch the “Yes Man” scene as an antidote!) The narrator often will quote Jung directly, then blur into a statement such as “stage 2 is what I call the great devouring.” It is not clear who the “I” is who is appropriating Jung’s name, you can’t even say he is appropriating Jung’s work, more stringing together a few unconnected quotes and creating, what could be called a manifesto for empaths fighting narcissists.

As a scholar, I feel obligated to give a few references to debunk the claim that Jung’s work has anything to do with the conceptual framework of these videos.

I have the complete Collected Works of Jung, in book and e-book form, so I did a quick search for “narcissist” and only found 3 instances of variations of that word in the entire twenty volumes of the Collected Works.

“This kind of analysis brings the work of art into the sphere of general human psychology, where many other things besides art have their origin. To explain art in these terms is just as great a platitude as the statement that ‘every artist is a narcissist.’ Every man who pursues his own goal is a ‘narcissist’— though one wonders how permissible it is to give such wide currency to a term specifically coined for the pathology of neurosis.”[2]

The context of this quote is a critique of psychoanalysis reducing the production of art to a neurotic and pathological activity. Jung is in no way writing about the dangers of “narcissists.”

The only other appearance of a variation on the word “narcissist” is in a critique of Freud’s view of introversion and Eastern spirituality as pathological self-focus.

“Freud identifies it with an autoerotic, ‘narcissistic’ attitude of mind. He shares his negative position with the National Socialist philosophy of modern Germany, which accuses introversion of being an offence against community feeling. In the East, however, our cherished extraversion is depreciated as illusory desirousness, as existence in the samsāra, the very essence of the nidāna-chain which culminates in the sum of the world’s sufferings.”[3]

If anything, Jung’s three instances of the word “narcissist” in the CW are a defense of introversion and artistic creation as not being a narcissistic preoccupation with the self, but impliy that there is a healthy form of self-focus possible.

The word “empath” or the concept of a “highly sensitive person” is not found in any of Jung’s writing as these are terms that were developed long after he had died in 1961. Variations of “empathize,” “empathizes,” and “empathized” appear twenty-three times in the collected works, but these are used in the ordinary manner of speech and not referring to “empaths” or “narcissistic abuse of empaths.”

Why would someone create obviously untrue videos and make false attributions to Carl Jung, replete with AI generated images of Jung? I really couldn’t tell you. Maybe someone thinks that invoking Jung gives their ideas credibility or validity?

There is a $39 The Alchemist’s Path: Perception Training for Empaths that can be purchased through the Surreal Mind YouTube site. So, there is possibly some money being made from the popularity of these deceptive videos through sales, but maybe more through ad revenue.

Since initially posting this, I have found another site, The Unconscious Guide, which takes the deception a step further by adding AI voice-over that is supposed to sound like Carl Jung, again speaking about empaths and narcissists.

I am disturbed, on multiple levels, by these empaths vs narcissists videos that are said to grow out of “Carl Jung Psychology:”

  1. These videos are blatantly untrue. They have nothing to do with Jung’s work and misrepresent him as founding a contemporary pop psychology misinformation mill.
  2. The videos clog the internet with AI misinformation.
  3. The videos further the dehumanization we have been trying to counter in medicine and health care by reducing human beings to labels, in this case, “empath” or “narcissist.” We have worked diligently in medicine to shift from the language of “he’s a schizophrenic” to “he is a person living with schizophrenia.” To call oneself an “empath” and another a “narcissist” diminishes the humanity of both people to a label.
  4. The videos promote a division of the world into the good: empaths, and the bad: narcissists. We don’t need further polarization and “othering” in the world at this time, even if it is currently very popular to demonize “others.” These videos encourage people to enter into a kind of “psychological warfare” against an inhuman enemy instead of focusing on one’s own humanity.
  5. Both the medium (the AI aesthetics and auditory tones) and the message (the false attributions to Jung) feel sticky, creepy, and cult-like.

What I am concerned about, beyond the obvious misappropriation, is that I hear clients latching on to the victim aspect of this empath/narcissist narrative. The risk is that people can over-focus on the power of the “narcissist” and ignore their own power. Healing is about caring for Self, not about finding fault in others. As Nietzsche wrote,

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look long into the abyss, the abyss looks back into you.”[4]

What this quote means to me is that we must be careful in studying the wrongs of others, lest we become like them to “overcome” them. True healing is self-connection and awakening the goodness of your own heart. In addition to the deceptiveness and misrepresentation of Jung, I do worry that this narrative risks being too much about the “other” and not enough about the Self.

Jung is important to me, his book, Modern Man in Search of a Soul, was one of the two books that led me on the path of becoming a psychiatrist (psyche-iatros: soul healer). The other book was M. Scott Peck’s The Road Less Traveled. In Modern Man in Search of a Soul, I learned of a view of the profession of psychiatry that was more than a reductionistic approach to brain chemicals, but a complex psychotherapy focused on personal growth. For Jung, the study of psychiatry included the arts and humanities, anthropology, archaeology, the study of language, dreams, and spirituality. The goal of life, and therefore psychotherapy, was the path of individuation, a journey from the limitation of one’s childhood and public persona to states of greater wholeness. This psychological journey shares a great deal with the spiritual quest. Jungian psychology tends to focus more on the inner journey of growth in which the ego clings to its limited persona and the obscuration of the personal shadow in order to manifest more of the “self.” This path of growth focuses on inner experiences of dreams and visions from the unconscious. This growth is in service to the self, not in service of the ego. Jung’s psychology is not for those who wish to be comfortable in the everyday world, but it is for those who wish to undertake a journey of self-discovery to become not who they think they should be, but to become who they are truly capable of becoming.

Here is the last paragraph of Modern Man in Search of a Soul:

“The living spirit grows and even outgrows its earlier forms of expression; it freely chooses the…[people]…in whom it lives and who proclaim it. This living spirit is eternally renewed and pursues its goal in manifold and inconceivable ways throughout the history of…[humanity]. Measured against it, the names and forms which men have given it mean little enough; they are only the changing leaves and blossoms on the stem of the eternal tree.”[5]

These videos obscure more than reveal Jung and his writings – they are predominantly misinformation and deception. I find them creepy, cult-like AI fantasies. I encourage you to watch the Terrence Stamp scene in “Yes Man” and then go back and watch these videos and see if you look at them differently. If you would really like to learn about Jung, read Memories, Dreams, Reflections autobiographical sketches written by Aniela Jaffé through conversations with Jung, or the newly published Jung’s Life and Work: Interviews for Memories, Dreams, Reflections with Aniela Jaffé, or Carl Jung Speaking: Interviews and Encounters, or The Essential Jung: Selected Writings.


[1] Heschel, S. in “Introduction,” Heschel, Abraham Joshua. Moral Grandeur and Spiritual Audacity: Essays. Farrar, Straus and Giroux. Kindle Edition, 1997.

[2] Jung, CG. “On the Relation of Analytical Psychology to Poetry,” The Spirit in Man, Art, and Literature (CW 15), ¶ 102, p. 68. The Collected Works of C.G. Jung (Kindle Locations 221217-221220). Princeton University Press. Kindle Edition.

[3] Jung, CG. “Psychological Commentary on ‘The Tibetan Book of the Great Liberation,’” Psychology and Religion: West and East (Collected Works 11), ¶770, p. 481. The Collected Works of C.G. Jung (Kindle Locations 148354-148359). Princeton University Press. Kindle Edition.

[4] Nietzsche, F. Aphorism 146, Beyond Good & Evil: Prelude to  Philosophy of the Future, Kaufmann, W (trans). New York: Vintage Books, 1989, p 89.

[5] Jung, CG. Modern Man in Search of a Soul. New York: Harvest, (1933), p. 244. Kindle Edition. Location 3572, (pp. 250-251).

Episode 14: What is the Story that is Enough? Becoming a True Human Podcast

Episode 14: What is the Story that is Enough?

Chris tells a story, attributed to Elie Wiesel, about a time when the world was in chaos and disorder and a Rabbi asked what he could do and was told to go into a certain forest, to light a candle, and to say a certain prayer. He did so and peace and order was restored in the world. However, over lifetimes, chaos and disorder descended again, but people forgot where the certain forest was. A Rabbi tried lighting a candle and saying a prayer – and it was enough, peace and order was restored again. Over many more lifetimes, chaos and disorder arose again, but the people had forgotten the prayer. A Rabbi lit a candle – and it was enough, peace and order was restored. Over many more lifetimes, again chaos and disorder arose. There was a Rabbi who didn’t know the forest, about the candle, or what the prayer was, but he knew that once there was a story of how to restore peace and order – and knowing that story was enough! Peace was restored once more.

Chris asks Dave about how we can find that story is that is enough in contemporary times.

Dave recalls the Bertolt Brecht quote:

               Motto

“In the dark times, will there also be singing?

Yes, there will be singing.

About the dark times.”

(Bertolt Brecht)

But Chris does not find this a positive enough response. Dave summarizes a Philip K Dick story in which the individual human is doomed, but humanity is saved, but this still does not satisfy Chris. Then Dave invokes Robert Jay Lifton’s concept of the “witnessing professional,” and Parker Palmer’s “the new professional.” Then Dave recalls when he was working with Joseph Rael (Beautiful Painted Arrow) on writing Walking the Medicine Wheel, and Joseph recounted a “dream or a vision” that Wah-Mah-Chi (the Tiwa word for God – Breath-Matter-Movement) holds back a place of goodness in our hearts – no matter what we have done and no matter what has been done to us. In this sense, when we feel lost, when we lose ourselves, when we feel that we have lost our souls – the work is not actually to find something that we no longer have, but rather to reconnect to what is already present deep within our hearts.

We look at this story from different perspectives and ponder how to find the story that is enough for these times.

We also discuss two pieces of writing, that we have each been working on independently, and realize a common theme about being scapegoated and trying to figure out a story that makes sense of the situation and that is enough for each of us to go on. We also talk about passive bystanders who could speak up, but choose not to – and we wonder how we can all preserve on our humanity by preserving the humanity of others.

Dave reads David Wagoner’s poem, “Lost.”

               Lost

Stand still. The trees ahead and bushes beside you

Are not lost. Wherever you are is called Here,

And you must treat it as a powerful stranger,

Must ask permission to know it and be known.

The forest breathes. Listen. It answers,

I have made this place around you.

If you leave it, you may come back again, saying Here.

No two trees are the same to Raven.

No two branches are the same to Wren.

If what a tree or a bush does is lost on you,

You are surely lost. Stand still. The forest knows

Where you are. You must let it find you.

(David Wagoner)

Chris leads a guided imagery mediation on finding our own inner forest, our own prayer, and our own light to work for peace in ourselves and then to carry that forth into the world.

We have decided that this 14th episode is the beginning of season 2 of the Becoming a True Human podcast. We are introducing a new format where we will alternate between the two of us doing our usual podcast, having a special guest of one of our VA Whole Health friends, and then having a guest that we choose outside of our healer’s circle of friends.

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/63f0qUiXE2xURFUPwiyLqj

YouTube: https://youtu.be/0oXcLZKB02Q

Creating Sanctuaries of Creativity & Imagination (Becoming A True Human podcast episode #13)

Chris Smith & Dave Kopacz bring the year to a close talking about a number of themes, such as looking back and looking forward, creating sanctuaries of creativity & imagination, the start of the healer’s council, and the question of whether our country and world is metaphorically stuck in something like a chronic illness pattern.

Chris starts with a story of creating workshops on Chronic Illness Meets Love, and Mindfulness Meets Chronic Illness – and not having anyone show up! But then he is invited to join a healthcare professional to run a series of workshops on Mindfulness and Irritable Bowel Disorders. Chris introduces the idea of creating a space that can become filled with creativity & imagination.

Dave introduces the Sanskrit term guhā or cave of the heart, which he and Joseph Rael wrote about in their book, Becoming Medicine: Pathways of Initiation into a Living Spirituality. This concept teaches that there is an inner space of stillness deep within the heart, a place where the individual meets the divine. The Greek terms kenosis (emptying) and hesychia (stillness) reflect a similar state of being or practice, as well as the practice of incubation in the ancient temples of Asklepios, where initiates would lie down in darkness and stillness and wait for inspiration from dreams or visions.

Dave and Chris talk about Albert Ellis’ three musts: 1) “I must do well” 2) “you must treat me well” 3) “life must be easy.” We spoke about similarities with the Buddha’s four noble truths that begins with “life is suffering.”

Chris read the poem, “Dropping Keys,” a version of Hafiz by Daniel Landinsky, based on a story from Sufism of looking for dropped keys. (The poem can be found in Ladinsky’s The Gift, p. 205 and his A Year with Hafiz, p. 395).

The podcast closes with Dave leading a guided meditation that combines The Cave of the Heart Ceremony from Becoming Medicine with the Coming Home Ceremony from Walking the Medicine Wheel. This meditation takes us on the journey of transformation of the circulation of the blood through the four chambers (four directions) of the heart, receiving the most oxygen-depleted blood into the heart and giving away the most oxygen-rich blood to the body. After circulating around, the meditation moves into the still point of the circle, the center, the cave of the heart – a place of stillness and emptiness where one can go to feel replenished, a sanctuary of creativity and imagination at our deepest being.

We look back over the life of the podcast, Becoming a True Human, and look forward to the new year where we plan to alternate between our usual dynamic duo podcast, guests who have been foundational in creating and implementing the VA Whole Health program, and special guests – authors, artists, healers, and poets we admire.

Video link

Audio link

I think we’ll call this the end of season 1! Have a great end of 2025 and we’ll see you again in 2026!

Moving (Becoming a True Human Podcast #12)

It has been a while since I’ve posted here – a lot has been happening. Our family moved from Seattle to Madison, Wisconsin. We’ve talked about this before and almost moved, but this time we finally did it. There was a pull to be closer to aging parents. There was a push to get out of the VA and being a federal employee during a time that federal employees were being scapegoated, demonized, and “othered.”

As I wrote in the prologue of the Hero’s Journey class I used to teach to Veterans:

All journeys begin with a loss. Sometimes we do not recognize the loss, because we are so focused on the excitement of the new outer vistas we are entering. Other times, loss is the only thing we are aware of; we don’t see adventure or experience, we only see tragedy.


All journeys begin with a gain. Sometimes we do not recognize the gain, because we are so focused on the grief of what we are leaving behind. Other times, gain is the only thing we are aware of; we don’t see the loss, just the excitement of the new.


All journeys are ultimately made alone. Resign yourself to be alone, as all journeys require being alone.


All journeys are made with others. Embrace fellowship, because no journey is done completely alone.


Perhaps the entire secret of life is to continually strive to create enough space within ourselves, in our souls to accommodate as many of our life experiences —be they good or bad, joyful or tragic — as we can.

Joseph Campbell said that it is not so much that we are searching for meaning as that “what we’re seeking is an experience of being alive, so that our life experiences on the purely physical plane will have resonances with our own innermost being and reality, so that we will actually feel the rapture of being alive,” (Joseph Campbell with Bill Moyers, The Power of Myth, 4-5).

At some point, maybe I will write more about the difficulties of this move, the death of our cat, Sofia, the week we were supposed to drive across the country, the cd player breaking in Idaho, the many delays and difficulties with moving into the new house, or our run in with a giant green man in Blue Earth, Minnesota.

For now, I’ll just introduce the next episode of the Becoming a True Human Podcast, Episode 12: Moving.

Episode 12: Moving:

After a long hiatus, Chris Smith and Dave Kopacz discuss the varied aspects of moving, from moving across the country, moving/transitioning jobs, being moved by stories, and the GI tract as a metaphor for life – moving too fast or moving too slowly can both be painful.

Chris shares a number of short readings from his work in progress, A Soft Way, a variation on the Tao Te Ching through the lens of chronic illness, specifically “moving disorders” such as Irritable Bowel Syndrome, Ulcerative Colitis, and Crohn’s Disease.

Dave muses about his recent cross-country move from Seattle to Madison, Wisconsin, applying the hero’s journey to everyday life, and changing jobs to allow greater movement and flexibility.

YouTube Video link

Spotify Audio link

Also, I didn’t post Episode 11: Freedom of Free Doom? Here it is for those who might want it:

With the 4th of July next week, Dave and Chris reflect on the relationship between Freedom and Free Doom. Is doom inherent in freedom, are they in some kind of relationship, can there be freedom without doom? They look at the inescapable reality of sickness and death in life and how these limitations can actually shape the kinds of human freedom that are available. We are “doomed” to die, and yet human freedom is possible within the span of birth to death. Limitation is also present in the choices that we make in life – one choice often precludes other options.

Dave draws on recent readings of Erich Fromm’s Escape from Freedom and Timothy Snyder’s On Freedom, which look at psychological and political perspectives on freedom and fascism. Chris ponders on the relationship between meditation and freedom. They discuss the relationship between individualistic and inter-relational freedom – agreeing that freedom of the individual is not possible without freedom of all as they draw on Dave’s Me/We version of the Circle of Health, Thich Nhat Hanh’s interbeing, and ubuntu as described by Archbishop Desmond Tutu. They end referencing Václav Havel’s definition of hope.

YouTube Video link

Spotify Audio link

Becoming a True Human Podcast: Episode 10: The Doctor as a Humanist

Episode 10: The Doctor as a Humanist

Guest: Jonathan McFarland

Spotify Audio: t.ly/6BHxl

YouTube Video: t.ly/yISVN

Dave Kopacz & Chris Smith are joined founder and president of The Doctor as a Humanist – Jonathan McFarland. Chris joins us from a visit to the Driftless Area of Wisconsin (which Jonathan uses as a metaphor for a sense of loss of humanity in contemporary society – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driftless_Area), Dave speaks from his home in Seattle, and Jonathan joins from Mallorca, Spain.

Jonathan gives a brief history of himself as a human being, growing up in Liverpool, UK, surrounded by medicine and the arts. He describes how when his father, a surgeon, had a heart attack and was in the hospital, he had the idea of starting The Doctor as a Humanist (DASH). Jonathan has reached hundreds and thousands of students, educators, doctors, and other health care professionals through DASH. Jonathan clarifies that when he speaks of “doctors,” he means that broadly, to include all in health care – as doctor comes from the root docere, to teach.

We talk about what it means to be a humanist and why medicine needs re-humanizing. We jokingly define a humanist as someone who can’t answer a yes or no question without offering a quote from the arts or literature. They also speak of the possibility that when one is speaking of numbers and quantitative paradigms – the human is not present. Being a Humanist (and Becoming a True Human) are about values, compassion, and interpersonal connection.

Jonathan offers a definition of a humanist, “someone who cares about what is happening in the world around them and cares about the cultures” and the Earth. He touches upon the meanings of dignity and responsibility.

Jonathan mentions a book by Robert McFarlane, The Gift, which is “about the importance of giving books to others.”

We speak of and quote: John Berger, Bob Dylan, Martin Buber, Philip K. Dick, the Greek philosophers, Descartes, Spinoza, Gavin Francis, and many others.

Chris offers the quote from Buber, “All real living is meeting,” which feels like a good description of this incredible meeting between the three speakers today.

The Doctor as a Humanist website will soon be revised, but here is the current site: https://doctorasahumanist.weebly.com/

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

Chris Smith has a recent publication in Pulse, “Medicine Without a Bottle”  https://pulsevoices.org/stories/medicine-without-a-bottle/

Dave Kopacz and Joseph Rael (Beautiful Painted Arrow) have a publication in About Place Journal, “My Collaboration with Joseph Rael (Beautiful Painted Arrow)” https://aboutplacejournal.org/issues/careful-care-full-collaboration/possibilities/david-r-kopacz-m-d-joseph-rael-beautiful-painted-arrow/

Dave was also interviewed by Claudiu Murgan on the Spiritually Inspired podcast: https://claudiumurgan.com/

Dave’s most recent book, Caring for Self & Others: Transforming Burnout, Compassion Fatigue & Soul Loss just won a Nautilus Gold Medal book Award: https://www.nautilusbookawards.com/2025-winners-11-20

Spotify Audio: t.ly/6BHxl

YouTube Video: t.ly/yISVN

Becoming a True Human podcast: Episode 9: Illness & Creativity

09 Illness & Creativity:

Dave and Chris talk about how illness can be a call to creativity. Chris starts out with a story of learning from a young cancer patient. We talk about how illness can break down the everyday mindset, or horizontal, material focus and introduce a vertical, or spiritual dimension in life. To make this shift requires an openness to creativity and also allowing inspiration, grace, or a sense of a gift to be received. This gift of creativity can then be shared with others. We talk about the lives and creative processes of Philip K. Dick and Carl G. Jung. As always, Chris and Dave share stories, humor, ideas, and books. Dave closes with a Daniel Ladinsky rendering of a Hafiz poem, “To Build a Swing.”

To Build a Swing
You carry
All the ingredients
To turn your life into a nightmare─
Don’t mix them!
You have all the genius
To build a swing in your backyard
For God.
That sounds
Like a hell of a lot more fun.
Let’s start laughing, drawing blueprints,
Gathering our talented friends.
I will help you.
With my divine lyre and drum.
Hafiz
Will sing a thousand words,
You can take into your hands,
Like golden saws,
Sliver hammers,
Polished teakwood,
Strong silk rope.
You carry all the ingredients
To turn your existence into joy,
Mix them, mix
Them!

Hafiz, “To Build a Swing,” Translated/Rendered by Daniel Ladinsky, The Gift, p. 48

View or Listen to Episode:

YouTube: https://youtu.be/NjjTr6SQZMY

Spotify: https://creators.spotify.com/pod/show/david-kopacz8/episodes/Episode-9-Illness-and-Creativity-e322oku

Burnout & Telemental Health: Re-connecting to Ourselves while Connecting to Others

This is the powerpoint of a talk I gave on 1/17/25 on Telemental Health and Burnout through the UW/Haborview TeleBehavioral Health Training Series. Thanks to the team for inviting me.

https://www.theinvisiblegorilla.com/IGvideos.html

Becoming a True Human podcast, Episode 8: Let’s Do Something Positive

Welcome to Episode 8 of Becoming a True Human: Let’s Do Something Positive

Dave Kopacz & Chris Smith talk about different ways of transforming pain into passion in a discussion ranging from the poetry of Mirabai, the life and teachings of St. Francis, creating pockets of positivity, building caring communities, taking charge of your story, Rebecca Solnit’s The Faraway Nearby, making sure our actions are motivated by caring and uncaring, how fear can be the first shift from caring to a slippery slope of uncaring, and lastly noodling as a metaphor for life.

We offer a range of things that you can do right now to do something positive and shift from shock to action: reading and sharing quotes, different writing practices, building community, finding any of the “hundred objects close by” that can “cure sadness,” and canning tomatoes or apricots. Remember, “Don’t waste your suffering” and let’s all work at creating reservoirs of goodness – we are going to need them!

One more thing you can do positive, right now – go to the Dr. Lorna Breen Heroes’ Foundation and contact congrees to reauthorize the Lorna Breeen Act to improve health care worker well-being and to prevent suicide https://drlornabreen.org/reauthorizelba/

A Hundred Objects Close By

Mirabai (translated by Daniel Landinsky)

I know a cure for sadness:
Let your hands touch something that
makes your eyes
smile.

I bet there are a hundred objects close by
that can do that.

Look at
beauty’s gift to us─
her power is so great she enlivens
the earth, the sky, our
soul.

LINKS:

YouTube: https://youtu.be/bNh1KxCfyAA                                 
url short:           t.ly/6Bsmg

Spotify: https://creators.spotify.com/pod/show/david-kopacz8/episodes/Episode-8-Lets-Do-Something-Positive-e2uu171            
url short:           t.ly/JDRp4